Present: D. Brown, T. Byle, T. Korfhage, J. Hickey; Chairman; C.
Rypma, A. Parent, C. Gornowich, T. Schweitzer, and M. Huizenga. Also
Present: F. Wash, Planning Director, S. Conners, City Engineer; and P.
Dlouhy, CDD-Planning Assistant.
Chairman Hickey opened the meeting and Member Rypma gave the
invocation.
Approval of Minutes – August 19, 2009
Motion by C. Rypma, supported by D. Brown, to approve the minutes of
August 19, 2009, as printed. Motion carried.
General Public Comment
There were no comments at this time.
Case #09-563 – Huntington Ridge Condominiums – Public
Hearing
Chairman Hickey read the request of representatives from Huntington
Ridge Condominiums, Residential Planned Unit Development. They are
requesting a Final Area Site Plan amendment to eliminate the conditional
requirement for roof downspout connections to the project’s storm sewer
system.
Planner Wash related that the developer, Randy Smith, and his
engineer, Pete Buurstra, are present. Wash related that the downspouts
in question drain rooftops along the westerly edge of the Huntington
Ridge condo project. The Ironwood condominium development lies to the
immediate west of the Huntington Ridge development.
Planner Wash related this is a public hearing and notices were
created consistent with State of Michigan law. Planner Wash reviewed his
staff report and attachments, including planning commission minutes of
7-1-98, 8-5-98, and 9-16-98; Scott Conners report dated 8-27-09; a
zoning violation letter dated 6-5-09 regarding the subject drainage
area; the hydraulic/detention calculations from Pete Buurstra, P.E.; a
copy of the approved stormwater plan from the original FASP, including
the downspout note; public comment letters from Ira Parker, Robert
VerHeulen, Carrole Lynn Baker, Dan & Nancy Ostapowicz and the Ironwood
Condos Board of Directors. Wash then reviewed the model motion’s
findings of fact, staff analysis and recommendations.
Planner Wash stated that the planning commission might be concerned
over granting the requested downspout waiver, given that a specific
condition of approval was on the approved site plans and the development
was knowingly constructed without the downspout connections. Also,
Walker staff has been attempting to agree on an alternative downspout
design with the developer for over a year without success, as no options
were offered as feasible by the developer.
Chairman Hickey related in 1998 the planning commission made a
recommendation to the City Commission for approval of Huntington Ridge
Condominiums. Hickey stated the reason we are here tonight is regarding
the storm water situation all around the Huntington Ridge Condominiums.
Chairman Hickey asked Randy Smith why he didn’t add these downspout
connections during construction?
Randy Smith stated in Phase I, it wasn’t really a requirement since
the drainage went toward Leonard Street. Somewhere along the approval
process, that downspout connection note was added to the final plans
after they went to the planning commission. Randy Smith said he felt he
was held hostage. He admits that it got put off, but it wasn’t in
blatant disregard for the approved plans. Chairman Hickey stated that he
wasn’t satisfied with Mr. Smith’s answer.
Randy Smith stated that he had to provide calculations and stamp the
plans with the downspout connection note that is on the approved plans.
When they went to put gutters on they had issues. The contractors
couldn’t come up with a reasonable solution; it wasn’t just the
economics.
Pete Buurstra, Land Development Solutions, related that Ironwood
Condominiums constructed a regional detention pond, which was designed
to accommodate the Huntington Ridge Condominiums. He stated that Randy
Smith paid for his portion of the pond. In 1998, a planning commission
meeting was held, and there were public comments and neighborhood
concerns about drainage with a preexisting problem on the Ironwood
Condos property.
Mr. Buurstra then reviewed pictures from 1997 with the planning
commission, showing the east property line of the Ironwood Estates.
These pictures showed that flooding was an obvious problem. On top of
the regional detention pond the Huntington Ridge developer agreed to
install storm water detention for the whole lot for a 100 year storm
event. This developer was assessed and contributed to the special
assessment. Randy Smith provided 100 year detention when only 25 year
detention was required. They have reduced the storm water runoff and
volume to the Ironwood Condominiums property.
Pete Buurstra then reviewed a map of the preexisting area prior to
drainage improvements on site with detention calculations. Mr. Buurstra
stated that he felt that they are improving the drainage conditions from
the pre-developed to the current condition. He stated that Mr. Smith is
being asked to fix a problem that was already there. Pete Buurstra
reiterated that they have reduced the runoff plus added the 100 year
storm detention. He firmly believes that installing these roof drain
downspouts won’t solve the problem. The bulk of the run off is from the
southerly end. They shouldn’t have to solve a problem that was
pre-existing.
Chairman Hickey stated if the Huntington Ridge developers knew all of
this land was in the drainage area, then built 21 units, thereby dumping
more water in there, it is going to flood down into Ironwood
Condominiums.
Pete Buurstra stated that they are capturing the bulk of that water
and they are reducing the amount of water from the pre-existing site to
now. Chairman Hickey stated that he felt the last project engineer, Todd
Olin, made a mistake and now they are still making a mistake.
Member Byle stated there is some validity to what the Huntington
Ridge people say. However, the water is getting there faster because it
is coming right off the roof, and the neighbors are convinced the roof
water is making things worse. The question is, since they didn’t add the
downspouts to these houses, why didn’t they come up with an alternative
solution, and why did they keep building?
Motion by T. Korfhage, supported by D. Brown, to open the public
hearing.
Jim Metzler, 1071 Kensington, stated that his concern is that Randy
Smith did something wrong and how did it get by staff? What else
happened? Chairman Hickey stated that it didn’t get by staff; City staff
has been after him for quite some time and he has refused to comply.
Les Dewey, 1027 Country Garden, stated that he agreed with the
planning commission’s comments and concerns. He feels the downspouts
should be connected or an alternative offered by the developer.
Motion by M. Huizenga, supported by A. Parent, to receive and file
the five aforementioned letters from the neighbors into the record.
Motion carried.
Motion by T. Korfhage, supported by D. Brown, to close the public
hearing. Motion carried unanimously.
Chairman Hickey stated that he and other commissioners walked the
entire site from Huntington condos back behind Imperial Dr. and behind
Kingsrow and up to where the pond empties into the creek behind the
church. Hickey stated that he has a good idea of what’s happening. He
felt that the pond at Irownwood Estates should have some maintenance.
Chairman Hickey stated that when George Kazemier filled at the
southeast corner of the plat, he added to problems at Ironwood
Condominiums. Hickey stated that water should have been captured on top
of the hill and put into the ponds. The problem now is some water is not
going into the Ironwood Estates holding pond.
Randy Smith stated first of all, he is hoping we can come to a
solution. He contests the statement that he ignored the plan. Scott
Conners added that he knows that Randy Smith has called him over the
past 1 ½ years and they have gotten nowhere. Randy Smith stated that
should have stopped building in Phase I. Randy stated that he met with
Jeff Nelson and Travis Mabry and no one had a solution. He doesn’t want
this commission to think he ignored the problem, because he didn’t.
Randy stated that he doesn’t know how to get those gutter downspouts
over and around the porches, sidewalks, backyards, etc.
Member Byle stated that he doesn’t want to amend the Final Area Site
Plan; he wants a solution to be offered to the Developer’s Engineer.
Randy Smith submitted a drawing to the planning commission for review
that he had considered previously as a fix to the problem. It shows an
8-inch plastic pipe that would outlet into the SW pond in the Huntington
Ridge development. The rear downspouts would hook into that pipe. Mr.
Smith expressed concern that he might not be able to hook the north-most
units into the pipe. Member Byle said it looked like it would work from
an engineering perspective. Member Byle also related that on his site
visit it appeared the water level in the Ironwood pond is only a few
feet below the basement floor elevation in the lowest Ironwood
Condominiums. He stated when the pond level comes up during a storm
event, the water elevation would be above the basement floor elevation.
If the ground was saturated, he can see why some units have water
problems. He further stated, removing the water that comes from the
downspouts will help the Ironwood problem but would not significantly
reduce the Ironwood problem.
Chairman Hickey stated the planning commission has three choices, as
follows:
Deny the request and make the applicant find a way to connect the
downspouts and hook up to the storm sewer in the road, as originally
approved.
The applicant has 30 days to come up with a solution that is
approved by the City Engineer and the developer’s engineer so that
the downspout water is captured before it gets to Ironwood
Condominiums.
The applicant will not be able to get a building permit until
this is taken care of, as the notice of site plan/zoning violation
process will move forward.
Randy Smith asked if he gets to choose which one? Hickey stated yes.
Member Byle stated that he doesn’t want the residents of Ironwood
Condominiums to think this will solve their problem. Byle felt that some
alternative to the plan reviewed tonight will work.
Randy Smith reviewed pictures from 1995-96. He stated that people he
talked to 3-4 years prior to that didn’t have a problem. In 1995-96,
George Kazemier installed a pipe with dirt over it and the problem got
worse. Member Byle stated that if the outlet is fixed in the Ironwood
pond it could help.
Randy Smith stated that the surface water on Barrington goes north.
Some condos feed down to the southwest corner basin. Chairman Hickey
stated the problem was relieved on Thornwyk. Hickey felt it is not Randy
Smith’s responsibility to remedy the problem at Ironwood. It is his
responsibility to have the downspout water going to that holding pond.
Member Rypma asked if the downspouts would really make a difference?
Scott Conners stated it will make a difference. We are not talking about
a lot of water, and this will not help the Ironwood pond. Scott stated
that the Ironwood pond needs maintenance. Scott related that 20 years
ago, there were no minimum building openings or no maintenance
agreements on the pond. The water ground water level is so close the
sump pumps are running all the time. This type of problem is common in
older developments.
Randy Smith stated that he chooses Option # 2. He asked if he had to
come back to the planning commission? Chairman Hickey stated that he
would like Scott Conners approval and have Mr. Smith come back to the
planning commission. It was determined that this item will be tabled
until the October 7th meeting.
Planner Wash stated that we held and closed a public hearing. If
Randy Smith’s group comes up with a creative solution, we will renotice
the meeting and come back to the planning commission. The applicant will
meet with the city engineer ahead of time and come back in 30 days.
Scott Conners stated that he would like a solution within the next
1-2 weeks, which will give him time to write a staff report. Conners
suggested that maybe Member Byle will help.
Planner Wash stated that we will reserve a spot on the October 7th
planning commission agenda.
Scott Connners stated that we are focusing on this one thing – the
downspouts on the rooftops along the westerly edge of the project.
Member Gornowich stated that additional development, existing or
proposed in Phase 4 will have the same situation.
Motion by T. Byle, supported by T. Korfage, to table the request
until the October 7th planning commission agenda. Motion
carried unanimously.
Commissioner and Staff Update
Planner Wash stated that the September 16th meeting is
cancelled due to a lack of agenda items.
The next meeting will be held on October 7th.
Wash related that the landscaping was installed at the DDA circle
today at the Walgreen’s site on Wilson and Lake Michigan Dr. Two Alberta
Spruce trees will be put in with seasonal lights as a downtown focal
point.
Wash related that an RFP will go out soon for a new ground sign in
the DDA circle.
Adjournment
Motion by A. Parent, supported by D. Brown, to adjourn at 8:20 p.m.
Motion carried.
The City
of Walker, Michigan